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Jul. 20th, 2003 | 05:50 pm

Well.. Since there are debates starting and stuff... Why not a post on abortion?

When I went to elementary school, I don't know why.. but it seemed like somewhere in my schooling, someone got me thinking about how horrible abortion is...
But as I grew older, and learned more about the world and exactly what abortion is.. I changed.. I'm now Pro-Choice...

After I became a funeral director and saw for myself fetuses that had mis-carried while they were within the abortion timeline... and saw what it was these people were aborting... I became 110% pro-choice and 110% anti pro-life. I could go on for hours explaining why abortion is ok to a pro-lifer and never get anywhere... it's like they are brainwashed...
What gets me is a lot of these people who are pro-life have never dealt with anything close to an abortion.. They see the end result of pregnancy (a baby) and assume everything is just peachy for everyone and everyone can do that..

They don't take into consideration that MAYBE the person getting the abortion just accepted a full ride scholarship to play soccer to a divison 1 school.. and her and her boyfriend had sex ONCE with protection and something went wrong...
Now.. why in the world would this girl go and throw away a free education to have a baby that would only stop her from doing any of that??
Why force this girl to ruin the life she is on track to have so that she can have a baby?
it should be her choice.. it's HER body...
If it was a LIVING thing inside her.. capable of even showing an emotion or living on it's own or.. hell.. even LOOKING like a human... then maybe they would have a case for a pro-life type of deal.. but when you look at the stages of pregnancy and look at what the stages of development are.. the guidelines for an abortion allow for them to abort up and until the fetus could be considered living... up and until a funeral director would be involved basically..
I have seen, handled, touched, etc fetuses that had mis-carried inside of that "abortion window" of time... they are not developed... you can't say they have rights... and the damn fetus wouldn't know if it was dead or alive... it's a thing... easy as that...

Now.. yes.. children are great and if said girl had decided to have said child.. then she would prolly make something for herself eventually.. but, in the process.. ruin what she had...

again.. HER CHOICE...

Lets look at another situation...
high school girl is walking home from school when she is pulled into the woods and violently raped at knifepoint...
she gets pregnant..
should she be forced to have that baby?
FUCK NO! (I really don't think that I have to explain this one....)... if she wants it.. fine.. it's her body.. but if she feels it is just a bad reminder... and she wants to abort it.. by ALL means she should have the right to do so..

Now.. I do not support abortion as a form of birth control (yes.. some idiots actually do that)... but if it is a person who has thought it through... (and I believe most abortion centers have someone who weighs all the options with the patient)... they should have the right to abort the pregnancy..

I have a number of friends who have babies and put their careers, dreams, schooling, etc on hold in order to have them... That was their choice and eventaully.. they will get themselves back to where they were before having the baby.. however, sometimes, they never will...
would I ever say "you should have gotten an abortion" to them?
fuck fuck fuck no... I have seen their babies... they love them and there is no question in my mind that they made the right decision for THEM..

However, not everyone sees things the same way..
Some people, if faced with this type of decision would see that it is going to require at least a full year off from whatever you were working towards... how many people can do that? How many people on the road to education with scholarships and everything else can afford to take a year off in order to have a child because of a mistake.. or because someone raped them? If they would rather pursue their hopes and dreams FIRST and THEN have children... THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT CHOICE....

The whole case of that person in (I believe it was florida) who has been in a coma for years, was raped, and got pregnant... should she have an abortion?
YES!... let her family make that decision for her!
I can NOT believe that the courts allowed outside people who had NO RIGHT sticking their opnions into the matter change what the decision was that was to be made...
In my opnion, that was just wrong and cruel to the woman in the coma...

Now.. for my views on those Pro Life activists...
I have seen them outside of planned parenthood.. holding signs and being ignorant about the process, the reasons, and everything else that has to do with abortion... Everytime I see them or pass them I kindly wave my hand at them with my middle finger stuck up... Those people protesting, who have never been put in the shoes of a high school girl who faces having all her hopes and dreams crushed cause of one night of carelessness (or a mistake, or worse), stand out there and pass judgement on said girl... as if her inner shame and everything wasn't going to be enough.. she now has to live life knowing that people who she dosen't even know or who dosen't even know why she did it or what she was going through passed judgement on her pre-maturally...

A person who has an abortion dosen't just go in, have it, and walk out without any emotional scars... ok.. some might.. but the majority don't... there is still a greiving time.. there is still situations when she is going to think back and wonder what if... but in the end, if it was necessary for her to succeed and build a home in which she can support bringing a baby up healthy in, she will know she did the right thing.... for HER..

so.. basically... I'm saying that I feel most (if not all) pro-life ACTIVISTS are ignorant, selfish, and just plain stupid (cause I like calling people stupid)... unless you have walked a mile in a womans shoes who has contemplated and/or had an abortion... you have no right telling her she is wrong for doing so...

so.. again.. just like the suicide post.. you can comment on it.. you can tell me I am stupid (just be prepared to back it up with STRONG evidence as to why you are right)... and you can voice your views... but know that you will NOT change mine.... I base my views on personal life experiences and life experiences of people that I know personally.. I do not base my views on a religions beliefs (which.. most are outdated anyways) or what a book tells me is right.....

Oh.. I didn't even get into the fact that I believe it should be illegal to bring a child into this world with major birth defects... (I'm talking the ones who are born who will never ever live past 10 years old because of a severe physical birth defects..) why make a child SUFFER through 10 years of life in a wheel chair never fully understand where it is, who it is.. or even what it is?


now.. for your reading pleasure... if you want.. I had writen an essay on abortion also... you can find it here...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/thedramaking/57305.html

THIS ENTRY WILL NOT BE LJ-CUT... SO DON'T EVEN ASK.... I SAT HERE AND WROTE ALL THIS.. I'M NOT GOING TO CUT IT

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Comments {122}

(no subject)

from: sillycrazychica
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 03:24 pm (UTC)
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I do not support abortion as a form of birth control (yes.. some idiots actually do that)...

But abortion is birth control.

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Don

Re:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 03:29 pm (UTC)
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I mean the people who go out and have unprotected sex just knowing that if they get pregnant they will go and get an abortion...

I know people who have had more than 10 abortions... it's like.. go on the friggin pill already...

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(Deleted comment)

Don

Re:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 03:31 pm (UTC)
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well... the things I have seen certainly would not have been able tosurvive outside the womb.. therefore not living enough to have rights...

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Lori

(no subject)

from: lilybug
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 04:10 pm (UTC)
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Science has proven that a "fetus" is alive (having brainwaves, working organs, and a heartbeat) at 9 weeks old. All they do after 9 weeks is grow bigger, gain fat.

Everyone is saying that since the baby cannot live outside the womb, that it is not considered a human being, that it should not have rights. So does that mean that a 45 year old man who is on life support after a car accident, who would normally die if he weren't on support, don't have rights either since he cannot survive on his own?

I don't belive in abortion for the simple fact that God put that baby where he wanted it -- who's place is it for any woman to play God just because she doesn't want to raise a child?! That's what Adoption is for.

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(no subject)

from: ex_jack_dan
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 04:21 pm (UTC)
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god?

your god is a cockmonger!

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(no subject)

from: kitty78
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 04:56 pm (UTC)
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I hope this doesnt change your opinion of me.

August 6 1999 I found out I was pregnant.

Aug 26 I had it aborted.

During this time, I was left to do everything on my own, all because my boyfriend was too busy getting his house in order for a party. Doctors appointments, ultrasounds, counselling AND the actual day of the procedure, he didnt have the guts to ask for th time off, he felt it wasnt an "emergency".

There is a lot more behind the storey. But since you posted on it, I thought i'd share my storey.

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Don

Re:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:16 pm (UTC)
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Yes, but Kat I know you well enough to know that you most likely didn't wake up one morning and say "I think i am going to abort this pregnancy.. I just don't feel like being pregnant"

I would be willing to bet that you thought long and hard about the paths you could go down and the consequences of all of them..

In the end you made the decision that best suited you and what you needed to do at that time...

Now, let's say you lived somewhere that told you that you did not have that choice to have the baby aborted... do you think that would be fair?

This is exactly why I am pro-choice... you knew what was best for YOU..

a bunch of people sitting around in suits making laws do not know what is best for YOU

I applaude you for doing what was best for you and not letting anyone else make the decision for you
*hug*

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irisira03

(no subject)

from: irisira03
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 05:28 pm (UTC)
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I have seen them outside of planned parenthood.. holding signs and being ignorant about the process

These people don't think - a good percentage of those going in there are going in for BC so they won't have to make that choice.

And, yes, it IS a choice. People should not be condemned for abortions. OR, for adoption OR keeping the child.

Pro-choice is just that - pro ANY choice.

I do think that some so-called pro-chocie people are actually pro-abortion, and they mutilate the meaning. However, how can someone call themselves pro-life and then bomb an abortion clinic.

And it CERTAINLY should not be a basis for an election. The only people that can make a decision on this are the nine people sitting in a courthouse in DC - and they aren't elected.

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Don

Re:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:41 pm (UTC)
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Ahh.. but you have to understand that a lot of those idiots standing outside the clinics are against birth control too cause it is a form of contraception...


Ya know.. I met someone once who was 110% pro life and supported the death penalty?
I really think some of these people just pick a side and go with it not thinking about what they are standing behind...

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a few things:

from: sasssyx
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:47 pm (UTC)
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1. i am pro-life, thanks.

2. no, i am not brain-washed.

3. i don't give a shit if some girl has a full-ride soccer scholarship and then gets pregnant, she's the one who had sex. girls shouldn't rely on condoms etc, which are only up to 99% guaranteed. i'm sorry, but if you're gonna have any type of sex, protection or not, don't run crying if you get pregnant, because there's always that little chance. people need to live with the outcome of their actions.

4. rape victims and other similar cases are the only ones who should have any say so in the matter.

5. please remove me from your friends' list, as i've removed you from mine.

thanks.

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Don

Re: a few things:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:49 pm (UTC)
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you removed me cause I am pro choice?
dayum...

so.. a girl can SAY she was raped and then it would be ok to have the abortion?

so you aren't really pro-life.. you are pro-choice still.. cause a pro-lifer believes that REGARDLESS of how the pregnancy happened.. it should not be aborted...

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(no subject)

from: screth18
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:48 pm (UTC)
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if you believe abortion is ok, than you believe murder is ok

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Don

Re:

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 06:50 pm (UTC)
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abortion is not murder... abortion is abortion.. plain and simple...

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well

from: anti_religion
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 07:17 pm (UTC)
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I read part of the comments n instead of commenting on each individually, I shall put it all into one.

First I'll state that I'm pro-life. I disagree with you on ALOT of what you said. But I feel it's your right to feel how you'd like, so I will not argue you on it.

Tho I do feel it was harsh of you to say that you couldnt have a debate with a pro-lifer because we'd get no where. Havent you noticed in any debate where the other person disagrees that you get no where? It's not just abortion that causes these types of arguments. To call a pro-lifer brainwashed because they dont want to believe your views, even after an argument, is hypocritical. Dont you realize that you dont budge on the topic either? That you dont suddenly go, "Oh, you're right... pro-life is better." No you dont. So you seriously cant say something like that. Because it's only being a hypocrite... and does look badly on you.

Angel

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Don

Re: well

from: shoshiki
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 07:22 pm (UTC)
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no... many pro-lifers ARE brainwashed... they have the idea of being pro-life without thinking about WHY they are pro-life...

they feel they have to be because their religion or a book says they have to be..

therefore, I consider them to be brainwashed...

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Abortion

from: southpaw1028
date: Jul. 20th, 2003 11:55 pm (UTC)
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There are moderate pro-lifers. Not all pro-lifers bomb abortion clinics. Those are just the extremists.

In your posting, you didn't once mention anything about considering adoption. WHy not let the baby live? There are alot of important people who were adopted or whose parents hated them. I think Pres. Gerald Ford was adopted and Einstein's parents hated him b/c he was a brat. WHo know, we could be killing the person who invents the cure to AIDS.

As for rape, I think most pro-lifers are for abortions if the woman is raped. Only about 10% are against abortions under any circumstnace.

Also,if medical science can prove that a feus or unborn baby is living and breathing and their heart is beating, then they should have laws protecting them. We have more laws to protect some dumb spotted owl than laws to protect a potential human being.

Abortion is a hard choice for anyone to make and there should probably be some kind of counselling for it before and after.

I read that paper you did in college. Was there a limitation in words or pages? Alot of it seems like generalizations and doesn't seem like you thoroughly read the laws or considered polling data. I did a report on abortion and polling data and used a gallup poll for most of my information.

You'd be surprized to hear that the 18-29 demographic is 48%-46% or something like that in favor of abortion, BUT the 30-49 demographic was pro-choice 53-39 or something like that. Overall, 48% say they're pro-choice and 42% say they're pro-life, which really isn't overwhemlingly favorable to one side or another. If you wanna read it further go on www.gallup.com (I think) and type in "abortion" in search and you cna find that poll...

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Re: Abortion

from: sasssyx
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 08:30 am (UTC)
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;p

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Lori

Strong Evidence

from: lilybug
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 12:59 am (UTC)
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so.. again.. just like the suicide post.. you can comment on it.. you can tell me I am stupid (just be prepared to back it up with STRONG evidence as to why you are right)...

Is this strong enough evidence to support the simple fact that a baby is alive and functioning at a VERY young age?! A baby moving, "breathing", sucking it's thumb, hearing, etc sure sounds like it's living to me, and it's doing everything we are, just much smaller.

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Re: Strong Evidence

from: sillycrazychica
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 11:48 am (UTC)
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No, it's not strong enough evidence. You must have gotten that information from a pro-life site as there is no medical terminology used. It's easy to be overcome by emotion and ignore what is actually present at each stage. Being pro-life is fine, but it's important to have reliable information and sources.

It is very difficult to find a neutral site regarding abortion, but here is a good one for fetal development.

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Lori

Stronger Evidence

from: lilybug
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 01:57 am (UTC)
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I know you're probably sick of me posting, but you asked for strong evidence, so I'm supplying it. We Pro-Lifer's are informed. Are you?

Here is a link to my personal journal, but anyone who looks, please beware -- there are some very disturbing drawings of how abortionists perform the Partial Birth Abortion -- the most popular way of performing an abortion. Hopefully you all have seen my previous post on the development of a baby in the womb, and after seeing this post, how can you honestly say that abortion isn't murder of a human life?

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Sarah Elizabeth

and my two cents...

from: sarahbeth13
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 06:13 am (UTC)
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I read most of the comments...and I found many of them to be disturbing.

When I was 14, I had an abortion. I found out early on...went to the doctor, they told me the earliest date I could have the abortion so my dad scheduled an appointment for me. I saw the ultra sound--I saw the little cluster of cells and I WAS attached from the get-go. That time period was the worst time of my life. I had never been so torn on what to do. My father was being absolutely unsupportive. And the whole time I went through this, my extended family was emotionally abusive, calling me a slut and whore and told me how I would end up living in some trailer, chasing after 5 dirty babies in diapers.
It got worse. When I arrived to the appointment, the building had red paint splashed on the siding. The words read clearly..."murderers...", "killers"... When I got out of the car, there were hordes of people pulling at my arms, telling me how awful I was. My boyfriend at the time was sitting on a curb with a lady who was comforting him. Neither of us were prepared for this emotional turmoil. My dad led me into the clinic where I had to first go to couseling. I had uncontrollable morning sickness and the lady who was supposed to counsel me just said, "Wow, it doesn't look like you could handle 8-9 months of this.." as I was puking my guts out into the trash. She proceeded to tell me that the abortion was effortless and I wouldn't think about it after it was done. Needless to say, I didn't have the abortion done there. I went the next day to a different facility where they put me to sleep and the people were truly caring and understanding.

That was December 96. Right now I am a full time student, going to school for a career I know I will be happy with. I have a job, I take care of myself. And I don't know if I could have done all this with a baby. With a 6 year old now. I made the right decision for myself (though it took years to realize that--and I still question it some days), but everyone should have the right to choose which decision is best for them--abortion, adoption, having the baby. Their choice.

Not one day goes by where I don't think about the abortion or how it changed me. I was ridiculed in high school. Everyone considered me to be a horrible person because of what I had done. I was labeled a slut even though I got pregnant by my first. My boyfriend at the time and I don't know exactly how it happened. Looking at the days and when exactly I got pregnant showed me that he was wearing a condom.

It's not fair for people to judge others in this situation...pro-life or pro-choice. No one knows 100% sure what they would do until they are there.

So before you radical pro-lifers throw red paint on buildings or label people who have had abortions, think about all the emotions that woman--or girl--is facing already.

Sorry Don, just had to vent.

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Autumn

Re: and my two cents...

from: somethingumist
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 10:31 am (UTC)
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amen to that. i agree fully.

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evillittlekiwi

(no subject)

from: evillittlekiwi
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 11:29 am (UTC)
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damn 98 comments..lol im not even gonna read em all *hugz*
just wanted to compliment ya on this post
*hugz*

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(no subject)

from: adelphian
date: Jul. 21st, 2003 03:32 pm (UTC)
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I must say I am a bit behind on this debate. And I'm sorry that I didn't see it before. I have sat and read through every single comment on this post. I have cried for the last 45 minutes trying to work through the emotions that were brought back from a banished time and place. Trying to think of a way to explain to you how it feels to know not everyone thinks the worst of you because of a decision you made. I just wanted to say "Thank You" for understanding both sides of the topic.

Sometimes the decision is made for medical reasons, like mine. And sometimes the decision is made for personal reasons. What ever the rhyme and reason behind it is, it's their decision, and I thank you for your support in keeping it thier choice.

Without knowing you were there for me during a horrid time in life, you couldn't have done a better job if you had... ;0)

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The whiner formerly known as Bachelorette911

(no subject)

from: suicidekitty911
date: Jul. 22nd, 2003 02:11 am (UTC)
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Hey Heather...
*hugs*
I'm sorry if anything I said made you feel bad or offended you. I didn't know.
And just so you know, I don't think any of less of you because you had an abortion, for whatever reason you had it. I feel strongly on the issue on a personal level (meaning that I couldn't have an abortion) but I can certainly respect the fact that others can, will, would, and did.
I'm on the fence whether it should be illegal or not...I don't know if it should or shouldn't be because in a lot of ways, I can see both sides...and there are-and should be-exceptions to every rule.
Most of the comments I made on other people's comments were last night when I was totally wasted and I can't even remember most of what I said...I do know, though, that sometimes it's hard to remember in a debate that there are going to be be people who are really hurt by what is said because they've been there. That was never my intention, and I'm sure it wasn't Don's, either. I'm really sorry.
*hugs & love*

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GlitterGabba

(no subject)

from: glittergabba
date: Jul. 25th, 2003 07:19 pm (UTC)
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You are entitled to your own opinion..but for you to call a fetus..just a *thing* is disgusting.
After all i've been through this year i highly disagree. When I found out i was pregnant i was already two months...and at that time my baby already had a heartbeat and she was still only a few inches big. So how could a fetus with a heartbeat be just a *thing*???
I am pro choice..but lets be real. Maybe to you..they look like little blobs of flesh..but in reality that little blob of flesh is developing into a human being everyday.. Maybe they couldn't survive in the world on their own..but that fetus is alive.. whether its just a bunch of cells... A cell is a living organism. So if you want to criticize people who are *pro-choice* at least get all your facts straight.
Because that *thing* you talk about..is now my two week old baby after 9 months...that *thing* is a human being who still cannot survive in the real world without my help!

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